Ssushi Posted 10 september 2006 Report Share Posted 10 september 2006 This is my first post, so hi to everyone! Also, sorry but my Dutch isn't good enough to post this in Nederlandse. About 11 months ago I bought a Jadis Orchestra which was on sale in my local HIFI shop. Since then it's been nothing but trouble. Valves have blown twice and on another occasion an internal glass fuse shattered. The amp is currently back at the shop with another blown tube and frankly I've had enough. Jadis won't replace it as the shop had it for 6 months before they sold it to me (as a demo model), so the shop is looking for another demo model in the Netherlands. I'm unhappy with this. I spoke to the shop and asked if I could simply change to another amp. I spent over an hour in the shop listening to a Pathos Classic One and a Primaluna Two. I thought the Prima Luna sounded the better (the Pathos looses to much depth and the 'valve sound'). Anyway, the dealer has offered me the following deal: Jadis cost me e1400 Pathos for e2300 - they sell it for e2200 Prima Luna for e 1900 - they sell it for e1575 Of course the Jadis cost of e1400 is deducted but still I'm spending way over the odds on the Prima Luna. Is this legal? I'm not sure what my consumer rights are in the Netherlands. Also, during the listening session, one track was Faithless - Salva Mea, a dance track. The owner now seems to believe that I may be blowing up the Jadis because potentially I listen to loud dance music. I don't; the Jadis has never been over 1/3 volume and that is rare! And I rarely listen to dance music. Can dance music blow valve amps - as I said, once a glass fuse actually shattered! I feel that they are trying to sell me the more expensive amp, to recoup some of their loss on the Jadis. I don't even want this amp, the Prima Luna sounded better to me. Any help with this is very very appreciated! Cheers Ssushi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enno Posted 10 september 2006 Report Share Posted 10 september 2006 Dear Ssushi, Welcome to the forum. The situation you're in is more or less comparable to a situation I was 3 years ago. I also bought a tubed amp. Sounded really wonderfull, when it worked. During almost a year it had been back in the shop 4 or 5 times. Different tubes, rewiring, others capacitors, nothing worked. After this time we (the shopowner and myself) were so fed up that we decided that he would keep the amp and I would take another one. Luckilly for me, he had an solid state amp I really enjoyed, I paid the price difference, everybody happy. How does this help you? Not to much I'm afraid. Your rights as a consumer are not to easy to get. Eventhough you have the right to get an article fulfilling your needs there are several problems. - The shopowner can fully ignore your rights, this means you have to go to court. Not an easy or inexpensive decision. - The shopowner 'acuses' you of wrong handling of the equipment. See option above. - The shopowner proposes an alternative you don't want. See option above. - The shopowner proposes an alternative you can relate to. Try working out the final details. I hope you can go for the last scenario. Try to convince him that a 20% write off on the Jadis is not a realistic amount, especially given the issue on 'non-confirmiteit' (the amp is not in line with what you could expect it to be). I'm not going to comment on the shopowners problem with dance music and amps, that is a (bad) joke. I hope you can find a way out, keep us posted. Kind regards, Enno Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssushi Posted 10 september 2006 Author Report Share Posted 10 september 2006 Dear Ssushi, Welcome to the forum. The situation you're in is more or less comparable to a situation I was 3 years ago. I also bought a tubed amp. Sounded really wonderfull, when it worked. During almost a year it had been back in the shop 4 or 5 times. Different tubes, rewiring, others capacitors, nothing worked. After this time we (the shopowner and myself) were so fed up that we decided that he would keep the amp and I would take another one. Luckilly for me, he had an solid state amp I really enjoyed, I paid the price difference, everybody happy. How does this help you? Not to much I'm afraid. Your rights as a consumer are not to easy to get. Eventhough you have the right to get an article fulfilling your needs there are several problems. - The shopowner can fully ignore your rights, this means you have to go to court. Not an easy or inexpensive decision. - The shopowner 'acuses' you of wrong handling of the equipment. See option above. - The shopowner proposes an alternative you don't want. See option above. - The shopowner proposes an alternative you can relate to. Try working out the final details. I hope you can go for the last scenario. Try to convince him that a 20% write off on the Jadis is not a realistic amount, especially given the issue on 'non-confirmiteit' (the amp is not in line with what you could expect it to be). I'm not going to comment on the shopowners problem with dance music and amps, that is a (bad) joke. I hope you can find a way out, keep us posted. Kind regards, Enno Emo, thanks for your reponse! It kinda sounds like he has me over a barrel. My principles are going to get in the way of sorting this out for sure! I was going to replace my speakers shortly so will let them know that they will not be seeing my business for them. What makes this so bad is that the better (i.e. the option I get ripped of the least) is the amp that I don't actualy want... Still, worse things happen in life I reckon. I'll post the final result. Cheers Ssushi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mordante Posted 10 september 2006 Report Share Posted 10 september 2006 To be honest I would take my losses and buy the PrimaLuna. You can agrue, threaten the shop owner, go to court etc. But this I think will cause the least frustration and will cost some money but all other options will take a lot of time and maybe in the end will cost you a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssushi Posted 10 september 2006 Author Report Share Posted 10 september 2006 To be honest I would take my losses and buy the PrimaLuna. You can agrue, threaten the shop owner, go to court etc. But this I think will cause the least frustration and will cost some money but all other options will take a lot of time and maybe in the end will cost you a lot more. I think I've decided to ask them to replace the blown tube on the Jadis and make further repairs myself. If I bought either of the other two amps, each time I looked at I'd feel resentment that I'd payed way over the odds for it. That would hurt every day of my life... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CableTalk Posted 10 september 2006 Report Share Posted 10 september 2006 Ssushi, Your consumer right is that the purchase price you paid has to be fully reimbursed, as the Jadis does not meet its expected lifetime nor its functionality is in line with the promises of the shop / factory. If I understand your first post correctly, the shop wil fully reimburse the Jadis. The hick-up is that they rather sell you a different amp than just refunding you your money. The way the shop now acts is legal: they accepted to fully compensate what you paid for the Jadis. I can understand the position of the shop: they want to earn money in the first place so selling a different amp while compensating the Jadis in full would be the best option for them. On the other hand: if necessary, play it hard as they just have to return you the money. You wouldn't need to go to court, they will know their rights as well. Sometimes it helps to have a good discussion when some other customers are in the shop as well Now, given the alternatives, if the Prima Luna is the amp of your choice I think their offer is a fair deal. Actually you get an almost EUR 400 discount on a new PrimaLuna as a compensation for the suffering with the Jadis. You then will end up with an EUR 1.575 amp in stead of an EUR 1.400 amp so the financial impact for you seems limited as well. Final conclusion: You have the right to get your money back so in the end you just should get your money back. But if you feel satisfied with the PrimaLuna and pay an additional EUR 175, this case will have a happy end for everybody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Kraus vonBentinck Posted 10 september 2006 Report Share Posted 10 september 2006 Normally a demo-model is sold under full garanty. In my opinion the shop-owner and Jadis are legally bound to either fully repair the actual model in your possession or replace it with a new one. Clearly the amp. does not fulfill the reasonble expectations you as a consumer would have had when buying this amplifier. You are entitled to s product that for a "normal" time functions according to expectations. Maybe there is a branche-organisation which might agree to a binding verdict in the matter or you could have recourse to "De consumentenbond" to assist you or, if you have insurance against legal costs, take it up with your insurance company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CableTalk Posted 10 september 2006 Report Share Posted 10 september 2006 I think I've decided to ask them to replace the blown tube on the Jadis and make further repairs myself. If I bought either of the other two amps, each time I looked at I'd feel resentment that I'd payed way over the odds for it. That would hurt every day of my life... I don't see why you would have paid over the odds for the Prima Luna as in the end you would have paid EUR 1.575 in stead of the normal price of EUR 1.900 By the way: playing dance music normally doesn't blow the valves. I have a Croft tube amp and this also has to suffer from elektro, house, heavy metal or symphonic music on a "more than average" volume, nothing happens except a bit more heat (but that's normal) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ssushi Posted 11 september 2006 Author Report Share Posted 11 september 2006 Thanks to everyone for the responses - I really appreciate it! To clarify: The shop wants to sell me either: 1) Pathos for e2300 - they sell it for e2200 I pay e100 OVER their standard shop price. 2) Prima Luna for e 1900 - they sell it for e1575 I pay e325 over the original shop price. When I said "Of course the Jadis cost of e1400 is deducted", that's not strictly true, in the case of the Pathos, they'll refund me e1300 and the Prima Luna they'll refund me e1075. Looking at it in this light, makes me realise that they surely must be breaking the law.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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